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Old 01-04-2018, 08:39 AM
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Default SAE J300 Engine oil viscosity classification.

SAE J300 is the standard that describes the current viscosity classification system for engine oils.

http://standards.sae.org/j300_201501/

A good explanation.

http://totachi.com/news/passenger-ca...des-viscosity/
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
SAE J300 is the standard that describes the current viscosity classification system for engine oils.



http://standards.sae.org/j300_201501/



A good explanation.



http://totachi.com/news/passenger-ca...des-viscosity/


Thanks Ron. The second link put it in terms I could understand. Nice to learn that the “W” means winter in the oil grade sae classification.


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Old 01-05-2018, 09:26 AM
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Ron,
We are running a few oil samples,I'm trying to figure out the range for bad / good oil.
On the viscosity for 15w-40 oil, if a sample shows less than 12.5 on the minimum kinematic (cSt)would it than be considered worn out?
And vise versa if a sample is near 16.3 cST, it would be considered fresh oil?
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Caliber View Post
Ron,
We are running a few oil samples,I'm trying to figure out the range for bad / good oil.
On the viscosity for 15w-40 oil, if a sample shows less than 12.5 on the minimum kinematic (cSt)would it than be considered worn out?
And vise versa if a sample is near 16.3 cST, it would be considered fresh oil?
Nope not at all.

Single data points do not tell you much, generally nothing. I love ripping
idiots apart that make recommendations on single data points. Oil is great
when you have a good program set up.

BTW, used oil does not get thinner with use, another bullshit wivestail.

But I am assuming you are running a diesel with 15W-40; most likely if you
are seeing your viscosity drop you have a fuel dilution problem. You are
getting fuel in your crank case. Fix your leak.

If you don't have any fuel contamination issues in your engine, diesels
generally will see an slight increase in viscosity with use, this is normal and
expected.

What you really want to look at is wear metals and additive levels. But
additive levels can be deceiving. For example, if you are looking at zinc levels
and overtime they are stable. It does not necessarily mean that the ZDDP is
still there and working for you. The additive can and will break down but the
zinc the metal used to monitor it will still be in the crankcase and can be
measured. No single test will tell you everything. You have to look at them
as a whole. You also have to run virgin oil so you know where you are
starting.
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post

But I am assuming you are running a diesel with 15W-40; most likely if you
are seeing your viscosity drop you have a fuel dilution problem. You are
getting fuel in your crank case. Fix your leak.

.
May not always be a leak. I have had several midrange engines that came in for fuel dilution, low oil pressure or rising oil level to be fixed by repairing the issue with the after treatment. If the dpf wants frequent regens it will inject excessive fuel in the cylinders to support the regen burn. If everything is working properly the regens are far enough apart there is no oil dilution. Something trying to regen every 5 hours or so will use a LOT of fuel, it will push past the rings and bam! Here we go.....
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
May not always be a leak. I have had several midrange engines that came in for fuel dilution, low oil pressure or rising oil level to be fixed by repairing the issue with the after treatment. If the dpf wants frequent regens it will inject excessive fuel in the cylinders to support the regen burn. If everything is working properly the regens are far enough apart there is no oil dilution. Something trying to regen every 5 hours or so will use a LOT of fuel, it will push past the rings and bam! Here we go.....
Didn't understand a damn thing you said there. Like I said before, I don't know shit about diesels
A question for Ron: I was always told by our oil guys that multigrade oils had polymers that expanded with heat, and that's why a 10w-40 had 10wt viscosity when cold, and 40 wt viscosity when hot. The oil being run through the transmission gear mesh had the polymers ground out of the oil, which made the oil "fall out of grade". At least that's what they told us regarding motorcycle oil, which is supposed to stay in grade longer because of more polymers, etc.
Is that true, or just weapons grade bullshit?
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:19 PM
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A question for Ron: I was always told by our oil guys that multigrade oils had
polymers that expanded with heat, and that's why a 10w-40 had 10wt
viscosity when cold, and 40 wt viscosity when hot.
Simplistic but basically true. Stop calling it weight... SAE 10W and SAE 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorDoctor View Post
The oil being run through the transmission gear mesh had the polymers ground out of the oil, which made the oil "fall out of grade". At least that's what they told us regarding motorcycle oil, which is supposed to stay in grade longer because of more polymers, etc.
Is that true, or just weapons grade bullshit?
Yeah that is starting to stink...

Back in the 1960 and 70's when 'multigrades' (the marketing wizards strike
again) first came out there was some issues with 'shear thinning' of the oil.
Part was the polymers were new and they were sill working out the bugs and
partly because of oxidation.

Fast forward 40 years and no not and issue any more as a matter of fact
with the Group II, III and IV base stocks used today in modern engine oils,
the amount of polymer has been significantly reduced and in a few cases
eliminated.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:31 PM
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Fast forward 40 years and no not and issue any more as a matter of fact
with the Group II, III and IV base stocks used today in modern engine oils,
the amount of polymer has been significantly reduced and in a few cases
eliminated.
So what are they using to make a SAE10W act like a SAE40 if not polymers? The only reason I'm asking is so I don't sound like a total boob when I'm explaining to a customer about oils. Generally I always start out that conversation with "I'm not a petroleum engineer or a chemist but this is what I know". Either that or I send them over to the most anal oil guys around (bobistheoilguy.com)
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:06 PM
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So what are they using to make a SAE10W act like a SAE40 if not polymers? The only reason I'm asking is so I don't sound like a total boob when I'm explaining to a customer about oils. Generally I always start out that conversation with "I'm not a petroleum engineer or a chemist but this is what I know". Either that or I send them over to the most anal oil guys around (bobistheoilguy.com)
Generally when you heat a liquid, the viscosity gets lower. There are a few
things out there that don't follow that principle, but I digress.

So if you look at the chart I provided in the first post there are tests that are
run that make sure the oil is pumpable when starting your engine when it is
very cold, if you look at the chart there is a cranking test and a pump test.
Lets use a 20W-50 a common motor cycle oil. The cold testing the SAE 20W
(W is for winter) is done at -15C and -20C so the oil can be pumped at those
temperature and provide lubrication when things are damn cold. The oil is still
pretty thick at this point but at least it moves.

The SAE 50 part is tested at 100C. So if I use really expensive base stocks
Group IV PAO's and Group V Polyolesters, I can likely meet both specification
with no polymer. The base stock are that good that no polymer is need, but I
would only sell small volumes because you would be looking at $50-60 per
gallon. But they are out there.

So the larger volume of the market use Group II and Group III paraffinic base
stocks. While these are still very good to use and most engine oils today use
them they don't have as good viscometrics as they need so they get some
help from polymers. But much less than we used to have to use back when all
we had was Group I and we did not even call it Group I, because most of the
rest did not exist.

Now lets say some guy in Africa near the equator, has a bike and the OEM say
we recommend you use a SAE 20W-50 grade oil that meets ILSAC GF-5. Well
he is never ever going to see anything that would be cold there. He can run a
SAE 50 all day long, and never ever has to worry about a thing. Or lets say
you have a customer that is never going to start his bike when it is below 70F,
give him a SAE 50 his bike will run forever on it no issues. Only if you are
going to start your engines in colder weather, lets be really conservative and
say below 40F, you might want to put in a multigrade just to be safe. I ran
straight grades in my mowers for years. They are just really getting hard to
find and the market shrinks.

Does that answer your question.
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