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Old 08-07-2005, 01:32 PM
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Default Cutter's Vise ~ In the Beginning

formerly known as Can This Vise Be Saved?

This is the origin of the current thread known as Cutter's Vise; I originally posted it on another site, having no notion whatever that it would turn into the never-ending story that it has. It was a great experience for me and for many other members of that site, those of us who proudly call ourselves the Garbage Gang. Most of the people named in this thread are members here; some are not, having never found their way to ShopFloorTalk but I think most of you are here. For those of you who have read the new Cutter's Vise thread, this is for you. And it is for new members who may come into our ranks in the future. I hope you can have even half as much fun as we Garbage Gangers had with it in the spring of 2004.

I need to add that all of the hard work of posting this material here was done by our very own Madam X; I thank you very much for all you do.

a note about the dates and replies that appear in this reproduction:
we have included enough dates to allow you a reference from time to time. We found it difficult and tedious to retrieve them all. The replies are mostly missing avatars and titles and sig lines. The usual highlighting of quotations is is also missing. This takes little adjustment but I think you can read and understand the sequence of events, and maybe laugh with us a little along the way.


******************************************



originally posted by Cutter 02-23-2004

I found this old Wilton #6 (Chicago, Ill.) last month lying in the weeds out behind the wellhouse belonging to one of my customers, a woman who is selling the property & who has since moved to the DFW area. God knows how long it had been there.

This sucker is huge; that is an 8 inch Crescent I tossed in front of it for scale & it weighs in at 105 pounds. The moving jaw is stuck inside the receiver and so far has resisted all manner of prying, tapping and banging. Since taking the picture, I have successfully removed the swivel base (had to use an 18 inch pipe wrench on the holddown nuts), and the screw came right out. The nut feels good, believe it or not & the screw had a fair coating of grease on the threads. I got the handle freed up, too. Besides the stuck jaw, the collar or yoke is missing and the 3 screws that held it in place are broken off in the casting. I figure I can make a new collar, drill out the old screws and re-tap to a slightly larger size if necessary. Now if anybody just happens to have a collar lying around, I would happily pay the postage & maybe buy you a brownie or something?

My brilliant plan so far is to haul it over to my shop & hang it from a hoist by the moving jaw - just off the floor - and heat the throat with a torch to see if I can break it loose. Any better ideas?



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posted by: fla jim

Thats a good looking hunk of iron. I'd soak it with some "Kroil" for a couple of weeks, before I attempted to do anything else.
That will make a real good vise. I have a 5" swivel jaw Wilton that I've had for over thirty years.

____fla jim's signature_______________

Jim the shop rat
From the depths of the "Magic Garage"


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posted by: Franz

Cutter, that vise is an ideal candidate for ELECTROLYTIC derusting.
It's going to take some time in the tank, but electrolytic will remove the rust, and make disassembly simple.
I'd start by hanging the vise in the tank from the screw, and cook it for a while, then unscrew the screw.
From there, change where you connect and derust piece by piece.
We've successfully derusted seriously corroded hit & miss engines using electrolosys as part of the disassembly process.
Chances are that vise was tossed because the setscrew in the screw retaining collar came loose, and the owner didn't know how to tighten it.
NICE FIND!

____Franz's signature_______________

Will the last weldOr leaving the Hobart board please turn off the lights.


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posted by: OlPilot

Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron. Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200, can't even guess what it would go for today. Today the vise market is flooded with Chicom junk and I think even Wilton has rolled over and may now build some there.

I agree with Franz and Jim about using a derusting solution or a penetrant like Kroil or Knock'erloose. I've gotten aircraft constant speed drives (CSD's) with coked and hooked splines separated from generators with Knock'erloose. That's about a $100K combination. I'd be inclined to use the derusting procedure first on your vise.

There's something else you should know. The back end of that model should consist of a cap which is retained by a pin. If you can find that pin and drive or drill it out, you should be able to remove the cap. You may need a slide hammer. That should provide better access from the back end for the derusting or penetrant to work. You can still buy parts for this model, but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.


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posted by: boilerman

toss it in bucket of diesel fuel for a week

____boilerman's signature_______________

I don't suffer from insanity....I enjoy every minute of it


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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: OlPilot
Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron. Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200,
You can still buy parts for this model, but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.
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posted by Cutter 02-24-2004

Gawd-O-Mighty! I knew they were pricey but I had nooooo idea they were that high. I did a google for it over the weekend & came across a thread that I thought described it & the guy mentioned $800, but he never stated the model. I have another big old vise sitting over at my shop/storage barn that I need to show you guys for an appraisal but it is not a swivel, just a straight bench vise. I've let it sit around for 2 or 3 years just because I didn't have a place stout enough to mount it. Seems like it is a Parks or something like that, clocks in at about 57 pounds, IIRC. It is in very good shape. We are actually getting a little snow down here but it's supposed to clear off tomorrow & warm right back up so I'll try to go photograph it soon.

I had been carrying a pretty casual attitude towards the old Wilton with the notion of just cleaning it up enough to use as an outdoor banger in my back yard, but sheesh! - at that price I better start thinking of it as a working heirloom & restore it half way right. Looks like I better start looking for some plate steel to make a stronger top for one of my steel tables, too.

Don't think I want to mount these things to a wooden bench with a plywood top. I also will have to come up with something big enough & sturdy enough to soak old #6 in. A 5 gallon pickle bucket or a Rubbermaid blanket box ain't gonna cut it with this old chunk.

Thanks for the comments, fellows. And especially that estimate, OP. Heck, I thought this was about a hunnerd dollar vise at best, considering the condition.


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posted by: OlPilot

Cutter, you could use it on a pedestal mount also. You could use old heavy truck wheels or discs for the base welded to 4" pipe. Franz can probably suggest what type of junkyard stuff to use. I think it might be more useable this way than on a table.


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posted by: Junk

Ok, so I need to know. I'm in the process of picking up a used vise soon, hopefully, but wanted to get one for my brother.

The short version is he was hit by a drunk driver and lost a leg. He is spending a lot of his time with his hobby, which is metal working. I want to get him something that will last him an extremely long time and was going to get him a new Wilton 5" swivel Machinst vise linked CLICK HERE , but are you saying that ALL of their vises are now crap? This $500 is a lot of money to me, so if it's not going to last then I'll get him something else. But if it's the same top quality they have made for years, then I will definitely get it for him. I'd go bigger if I could, but can't at the moment since I'm not working.

Thanks


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posted by: Jerry

If you can't get it working it'll be worth its wieght in gold as scrap metal for the chinese.

____Jerry's signature_______________

J P Streets Welding LLC


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posted by: Franz

Junk, it might just be my cantankerous nature, but I don't think I'd pay those people $500 for that vise.
If you go to Froogle on Google and type in 5" wilton vise
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wilton+5%22+vise you get over 1000 hits.
Notice that most of them don't use the R with a circle indicating it is a real Wilton vise. Evidently a lot of people have figured a way to make a copy and market it as a Wilton.
The real thing should show the registered trademark.


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posted by: Junk

Thanks Franz. That's what has me worried. So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer. Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up. This is really frustrating.
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Last edited by cutter; 08-07-2005 at 09:02 PM.
  #2  
Old 08-07-2005, 01:41 PM
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posted by Cutter 02-25-2004

quote:
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Originally posted by: Junk
Thanks Franz. That's what has me worried. So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer. Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up. This is really frustrating.
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Junk,

My take on it is a little different than yours. I don't think it is impossible to get a good new one although it is possible to buy new and NOT get an authentic one. I think what you need is some communication with buyers of new ones and used ones to find out how to get the good ones. Or IOW's, find a reputable dealer somehow, probably by finding his customers. And don't discard the idea of finding a used one, either through a dealer or an individual. They are obviously out there and if I were your brother, I would appreciate the gift of a used one even more than a new one. But that's just me; I like old things with character better than new, maybe because I have the notion that the old tools carry the spirit of the men and of the era in which they were made. Several people have been talking about plant closings and how easy it is to find auctions and bargain liquidations these days. Give that some investigation, too.

I also want to say that I am impressed by your generous intent in the matter & I hope you don't abandon your quest. I think you just need to find a different point of view & set a new "strategery". Give it a fair chance & your vise might just find you.


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posted by: Junk

Thanks Cutter.

I'm having a tough time finding liquidations and sales but continue to try. It's almost become a part time job at this point. Will continue and am not complaining about it.

Will continue to search. Thanks.


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posted by: Ryel

what is the big difference between the mechanics vise and the machinist vise? The price is double for the same size.

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posted by: wood-n steel

The Machinists vice is built to much closer tolerances when bolted down to the bead of a machine The fixed jaw will be perpendicular to the bead and the base will be parallel to the bead. It is used fore machining. Whereas the mechanics vise is used to hold parts while you beat the living **** out of them or weld sump thing or put the torches to that part that wont come apart.

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posted by Cutter 02-26-2004

If you read the descriptions, the machinist's vise is stated to be twice as strong
as the mechanic's, several differences like that.



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posted by: OlPilot

On that web page that Franz previously referenced for vises, note that some are listed at 30 ksi tensile, others at 60 ksi. The 30 ksi ones are sorry-assed cast iron. Just try beating on the anvil of one for any length of time with your sledgeomatic and see what happens!

The 60 ksi vises should at least be cast steel. But it's not just a question of tensile strength differences here, there's another metallurgical parameter to consider called fracture toughness. Fracture toughness is measured on V-notched samples using a Charpy impact tester. Cast iron, with all the carbide precipitates in it, is brittle. It's hard and is wonderful in compression, but not in tension or where impact or cyclic loads are applied.

Some years ago, I had a problem with planetary gear trains failing in DC-10 lower belly compartment cargo power drive units. I called the manufacturer in Germany and asked their chief engineer what material he had selected for these small and very highly loaded gears. "17-4 PH" he replied. "Thomas", I said, "When was the last time you checked MIL-Handbook-5?" "Why", he said. "Well", I said, "If you don't heat treat 17-4PH (a precipitation hardening stainless steel), you've got peanut butter. If you do heat treat it, you've got glass. Neither one is suitable for impact loaded gears." I got him to change the material to a 300 series steel. Expensive and harder than the hubs of hell for wear resistance, but it also had fracture toughness. The problem went away.

Maybe someday the Chicom manufactures of drill bits, vises and such will learn that just because something looks the same, it ain't necessarily so. When they do wake up, and change to better materials, the prices are bound to go up.

---------------------------------------------------
I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.



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posted by: Newb

Well, based on everyone's feedback, I started pickup up the weekly newspaper to find a vise.

Found a local auto repair guy going out of business.

This is what I got (film getting developed, will post pics when I get them back).

4 vises, 1 a Reed that opens about 12", 2 Columbians 1 opens about 7" and one about 5", and one old Wilton that opens about 11". Also got a box of exhaust clamps and hangers. Older Baldor 6" benchtop grinder.

Total cost was $100. I'm jacked up. Thought I'd share to let you know the deals are out there. So don't give up.

____Newb's signature_______________

I am a total newbie.



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posted by: Franz

Newb, look in your rearview mirror for flashing lights, the cops might be on you for highway robbery.
The Columbians are Wilton's second line, like Blue Point is Snap-On's second line.
Reed is an old machinery manufacturer.
You scored a lifetime supply of vises for $100-, now all you gotta deal with is the hernia you got runnin off with them.

____Franz's signature_______________

Will the last weldOr leaving the Hobart board please turn off the lights.



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posted by: Banzaitoyota

DAMN!!!! Good deal, I'll give you 40 for one of them.

____Banzaitoyota's signature_______________

Hobart Handler 175
75/25, argon and Tri-Mix

Mazda Rx-7's, RX-4 and a 3 rotor 20B
92 Dodge D250 CTD
Kubota G1800
New Holland TC35D


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posted by: Newb

Thanks Franz and thanks Banzaitoyota. Will post some pics when I get them. Banzai, wait till you see the pics, then let me know if you want any.


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posted by: Trevor

lets see some more pics of this vice after ELECTROLYTIC derusting and of those vices you got at the sale newb


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posted by: Newb

I'm getting my pics back tomorrow, so will post 'em up. They ain't pretty, but they will definitely last longer than I will or any of those chicomwaneeseposjobs out there.

Maybe TSP would work too for those of us that don't have the knowledge for electolysis. I didn't do that though. I just wiped 'em off and figured I'll use them as is.


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posted by: Franz

TSP is a non contestant.
For electrolytic cleaning the electrolyte is Sodium Silicate.


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posted by Cutter 03-07-2004

Old man Wilton got dunked into the vat yesterday and started on the road to recovery, I hope. This picture shows the results after about 18 hours into the rust removal process. Nastier looking than anything I've done before, but then this was a really rusty old vise, too.




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posted by: Hickey

Looks like some good soup. Will this process remove chrome too?


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posted by: Mike W

You can add acid to water to speed up the process and take off chrome also.


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posted by: Newb

Mike, what type of acid and how much? That looks like a nasty dish my wife would try serve up.

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posted by: Franz

BOYS, do NOT add acid to this process, acid will neutralize the electrolyte.
Cutter the tank looks about right, and I hope you remembered to do it in a well ventilated area.
Come to think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.
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Last edited by cutter; 08-07-2005 at 08:46 PM.
  #3  
Old 08-07-2005, 01:49 PM
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posted by: atucker

Cutter,

Be patient - when Franz first posted this procedure over at Hobart (last May), my son had just got a car from a friend. The trunk had water standing in the spare wheel well. We recovered the scissor type jack that had been submerged for who knows how long. The thing was total rust. The screw type shaft was locked tight, wouldn't budge. I took it home and took my first stab at Franz's procedure. Washing soda was easy to find here at most grocery stores. My initial reaction was like yours - what a nasty mess. In about 24 hours the shaft was free. I was amazed at how the process worked within the threaded part of it that was rusted. I guess we could call it the screw and the nut - the internal parts that weren't visible when it was still locked up. I let it go for another 24 hrs. and it was pretty darn clean. My son and I were both amazed. Painted it and it works great. From the looks of your vise, it doesn't look like you need to be in any hurry. I don't know how long it will take, but just give it time.

Allen T.


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posted by: Newb

I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right? After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise. Just want to make sure I have my basis covered. As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.


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posted by Cutter 03-08-2004


quote:
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Originally posted by Newb
I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right? After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise. Just want to make sure I have my basis covered. As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.
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Yep, it releases hydrogen gas, somewhat explosive when confined I hear. Don't care to test it myself so I am doing this outside & that's also why I didn't start last week. It rained off & on all week.
The water is nasty looking but really not all that caustic. I wouldn't want to soak in it but I have to get my hands in it to move that chunk of iron around. Just wash it off right away & no harm done. I have a ten year old dog & a dumbass of a 6 month old puppy. He took one whiff of it and shied away immediately; this is the dog that never met a fluid he didn't want to taste-test - before now. I'm not worried about him. Kids? - I don't know about & that's another reason its in my back yard.

Okay, I got a couple of "in progress" pictures. I managed to wrestle the beast out of the soup without straining my uterus or anything at about the 22 hour mark, yesterday afternoon. I rigged up a crude tripod & used an old wire-stretcher from my antique tool collection to temporarily suspend it by the moving jaw, hoping its own weight would begin to free up the slide. No luck yet. Banging on it didn't help either. So I laid it down & got a few shots to show you.

Here is a side view:



In the picture in the previous post, you can see that I lightly wire brushed the ball shaped area on the left side of the pic, on the moving jaw. That was with a few strokes using a hand-powered brush so the rust is dissolving pretty fast. I thought this might encourage some of you who said you are waiting to see how this turns out before you give it a try. Here is a closer look where you can plainly see the process is working very well:



The best news of the 22 hour report is that I was able to get 2 of the 3 broken collar screws out of the jaw. These are the screws that once held the retaining collar which keeps the main screw locked into the moving jaw. (The collar is missing.) The top screw is broken off flush. Think of the vise grips as being at the 9 o'clock position; the flush-broke screw is at 12 o'clock & three o'clock is protruding from the casting. I'll leave the problematic one until I am finished soaking the whole thing, then figure out how to get a grip on it. I was very happy to get the first two out so soon.



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posted by: Newb

looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.


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posted by: Paychk

Cutter to get the flush broken screw out, find some left hand twist drills and use a reversable drill. That screw will probably un-thread will you drill it.

____Paychk's signature_______________

Millermatic 200 w/ SKP-35 Spot Pulse Weld Panel, Tweco MIG-GUN #2, running ER70S-6 .035 wire on CO2, Spoolmatic 1 Spool Gun; Miller Thunderbolt 225 A/C stick machine My web page



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posted by Cutter 03-08-2004


quote:
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Originally posted by Newb
looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.
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Hey Newb, I don't mean this to sound too elementary, but you do mean a plastic storage bin, don't you?

Paychk, I have never owned a left-hand drill bit. I doubt that it will take very much torque to back that screw out by the time its soaked that long.

OlPilot, got any idea where I might find that missing collar, yoke, whatever? Also the handles are missing from the hold down nuts and the end cap is long gone. I can eventually make a collar that will do I think, but finding some day light to do it is a problem right now.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Franz
Come to think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.
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I have given some thought to your offer, Franz, As scarred up as this old dog is, I'd be embarrassed for you to have to pay the freight on it just to do that for me. How about if I wait until I fly up to NY sometime in May & just slip it into my carryon? I doubt anyone would notice.


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posted by: Franz

Cutter, if you wanna slip it in the carryon that'll work just fine.
Don't forget to bring all the parts.


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posted by: Newb

Yes, it's a plastic bin, thanks for asking.


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posted by: Mike W

Cutter, 20 parts water and one part muriatic acid would work faster.


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posted by: Newb

When we getting an update Cutter? Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?


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posted by: OlPilot

Cutter, this is the best address I could find. Don't know if they can help with parts. I tend to think Wilton has been gobbled up and is mostly offshore now.

WILTON TOOL GROUP
300 S Hicks Rd
Palatine, IL 60067
Phone: 847-934-6000
Fax: 847-934-6730

A few years ago, my boss bought parts for what appears to be an identical vise. I'll see if he can remember where he got them.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2005, 01:55 PM
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Show & Tell 48 hours

posted by Cutter 03-11-2004


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Newb
When we getting an update Cutter? Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?
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Newb,
The last thing my wife served me were the walking papers - ten years ago.

Here is a combined shot of the vise to show some contrast & give you an idea of the rate of progress. The top is the original condition, the lower was taken at about 44 hrs into the process. I used a hand brush very quickly on it & discovered some of the factory paint. If I were only interested in the appearance, I could probably finish it off with a wire wheel at this point but the sliding section is still frozen. This picture was taken 2 days ago; I hauled it out & checked it yesterday - still stuck. I was in a rush to leave for work so didn't bother with more photos.



This a detail of the front of the sliding section at the 18 hour mark on top and the lower was taken at about 44 hours. You can also see right down the gullet. I am beginning to doubt that I will be able to budge the jaw until I either buy or fabricate the collar so I can use the screw to back the jaw out. No time for that right now. However if anyone still doubts whether the process will remove rust, this 2nd picture should be proof enough.



Thanks OP. I did a google search, found an email address that seemed to match, sent an inquiry & got an "unable to deliver" back right away. When time permits maybe - very late to work as it is. Good thing I own my own time clock.

posted by: Jim314

cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.

____Jim314's signature_______________

Jim
Lincoln AC Buzzbox
HH 175


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show & tell continues

posted by Cutter 03-12-2004


quote:
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Originally posted by Jim314
cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.
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Thank you, Jim.

I am enjoying it too despite not really having any daylight time to spend on it during the week. I can usually spare a few minutes in the mornings but rarely get in before dark. About all I have time for then is to clean the rebar off & fire it back up.

About that rebar: I started this project off using 3 pieces about 10 inches long, tacked together with coathanger as the anode connected to the battery charger's positive lead. Within hours, the coathanger had rusted in two. So I found a piece of rebar about 4 feet long and stomped it into a rough U-shape & welded two of the short sticks to it, pictured below. The short pieces already had a sharp hook bent on one end so they could hang over the sides of the tub & suspend the U several inches off the floor. This has worked much better but is probably still less sacrificial metal than optimum because the current flow really slows down after about 12 hours. The battery charger's meter is probably very inaccurate but still is useful as a reference in that it shows a current draw of about 7 amps at startup & that drops to about 2 amps after 10 or 12 hours or whenever the anode gets heavily coated, as in the picture. So the process needs some tending & can't just be left alone for a week at a time without having the efficiency really suffer. All I have to do is wire brush the rusty slop off the rebar and hook it back up in the tank. Its messy but quick.
Even though it is obvious, I feel I should stress that polarity is a critical issue in this process. Always connect the negative lead to the part you want to de-rustify and the positive to the sacrificial anode. Otherwise you will reverse the process and screw up the thing you are trying to save. Simply put, remember that electrons flow from negative to positive & carry the rust with them because positive attracts.



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posted by: pjt

Showed this to one of the guys at work-we're ready to try it. What do we use for the solution? Soap powder? What kind? Is that what TSP is? (Is that Tri sodium Phosphate?)If it is,what am I looking for in the store(Namebrand?)
Question 2: Does this work for sheet metal? Will it be damaged if it stays in too long?


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posted by Cutter 03-12-2004


quote:
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Originally posted by pjt
Showed this to one of the guys at work-we're ready to try it. What do we use for the solution? Soap powder? What kind? Is that what TSP is? (Is that Tri sodium Phosphate?)If it is,what am I looking for in the store(Namebrand?)
Question 2: Does this work for sheet metal? Will it be damaged if it stays in too long?
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I am using Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda which differs from baking soda. It is sodium carbonate
rather than sodium bicarbonate. Here are links to a couple of the first articles I ever read about it a
year or two ago:

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/ru..._derusting.htm

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

They should answer most questions you can think of.


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posted by: fla jim

OOPS!
Cutter, you got it reversed. The item your derusting (the negative connection) is the anode. The Rebar (the positive connection) is the Cathode. The Electron flow from - to+ strips the oxidation from the anode and deposits it on the cathode.
I've dealt with "Cathodic protection in water tanks, where an electric current is set up between an anode and the tank wall (Cathode) to keep the tank wall from corroding. If you go to inspect the tank, and forget to turn off the cathodic protection, It will light up your day, about 90 volts D.C.


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posted by: atucker

OOPS! to the OOPS! - I hope we aren't starting another GREAT DEBATE here. From my GuruNet online dictionary:

an·ode (ăn'ōd')
n.
1. A positively charged electrode, as of an electrolytic cell, storage battery, or electron tube.
2. The negatively charged terminal of a primary cell or of a storage battery that is supplying current.

cath·ode (kăth'ōd')
n. (Abbr. ka)
1. A negatively charged electrode, as of an electrolytic cell, a storage battery, or an electron tube.
2. The positively charged terminal of a primary cell or a storage battery that is supplying current.

Geesh - this is one of those that when you first look at it, you say WHAT?

The way I read this, the stuff in the tank are the electrodes and consequently the #1 applies in both cases. Oddly enough, I've worked in electronics for many years and this is the first time I've seen the #2 definitions, which are referring to the power SOURCE.

Amazing what we can learn each day .

The more I read this the more I'm CONFUSED

Allen T.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

SCRAP the REBAR, use old lawnmower blades if you want to go cheap. For those who are really serious, CARBON anodes cause the crud doesn't accumulate.
Polarity is real simple, when you have the polarity right you see bubbles rising from the object your derusting.
ARM & Hammer washing soda, 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-12-2004


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fla jim
OOPS!
Cutter, you got it reversed. The item your derusting (the negative connection) is the anode. The Rebar (the positive connection) is the Cathode. The Electron flow from - to+ strips the oxidation from the anode and deposits it on the cathode.
I've dealt with "Cathodic protection in water tanks, where an electric current is set up between an anode and the tank wall (Cathode) to keep the tank wall from corroding. If you go to inspect the tank, and forget to turn off the cathodic protection, It will light up your day, about 90 volts D.C..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



AAAACK! I got the terminology reversed? But at least the connections are correct. That's what I get for posting before I wake up. Sorry about that.This is what I don't like about the 15 minute limit on editing posts.
Maybe I can get Chuck to deal with this one for me. I used "anode" in three places, I believe. Sheesh!

Okay, I have sent a message to Chuck asking him to correct my blunder but in a way that will not make Fla Jim's & A Tucker's comments appear odd. In other words, I did not ask him to simply substitute "cathode" for "anode" but to somehow red flag the post as containing the error. If he chooses not to do it, I think you guys have probably covered for me anyway. Thanks for catching me.

Hmmm, as Allen T. said, now I am more confused than before. The article I was referring to when I wrote my post also calls the positively charge part the "anode". I think maybe my mistake was really in using either term in this case.

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

I give up, late to work again. You guys can figger it out & let us all know.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Breathe deeply Cutter. The confusion is probably due to most people writing about electrolytic derusting using the term anode or sacrificial anode when referring to the attracting element. Hey, if it's on the internet it only has to be sorta correct some of the time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Ryel


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Franz
Hey, if it's on the internet it only has to be sorta correct some of the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


or at least a good urban legend.
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posted by: fla jim

In my previous life in the Navy. I Taught a four week Maintenance course for boiler tech's. Part of that course involved Galvanic corrosion. I had to start with basics if anodes, cathodes, the nobility of various metals etc. I did this with a slide presentation. I was teaching mostly 19-20 year olds. This was back in the all male sea going Navy. No way to make corrosion exciting. I had the training aids people make me a slide out of a pornographic picture ( imagine Paris Hilton, or Monica L.)

I would put the slide in the middle of my presentation ( about the time everyone was nodding off). I'd Just flash it for just a second, kinda like halftime at the Super Bowl. I'd hear a murmur "did you see that", and the class would be more alert through the rest of boring subject matter, wondering if there would be any more?

Anyway Cutter don't sweat it, the Guy at the old machine sight got them switched around while he was explaining it.
In an electrolytic circuit. The Anode is the negative. the Cathode is the positive. In the process iron oxide ( rust) is less nobel than steel, or iron. It becomes dissolved in the electrolyte. and is plated on the Cathode, in this case the rebar. If you let the procedure run for years the vise would dissolve
It's the same process as the Zinc sacrificial anode on a outboard motor. The zinc is less nobal than aluminum. When the motor is in the water a galvanic electric current is established. the current causes the zinc to be dissolved into the electrolyte (water) instead of the aluminum motor foot.
In the Cathodic protection system on water tanks A Dc current is generated with a power supply at about 90 volts with a couple of amps. a series of stainless bars are connected to the negative. this becomes the Anode. But a stainless alloy is a very "Nobel metal, and doesn't dissolve very well, and will last a long time. The water tank wall is connected to the positive. This becomes the Cathode and as such won't corrode (dissolve)
This is the 5:00 A.M. mister wizard show


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-13-2004


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fla jim
Anyway Cutter don't sweat it, the Guy at the old machine sight got them switched around while he was explaining it.
In an electrolytic circuit. The Anode is the negative. the Cathode is the positive. In the process iron oxide ( rust) is less nobel than steel, or iron. It becomes dissloved in the electrolyte. and is plated on the Cathode, in this case the rebar.
This is the 5:00 A.M. mister wizard show
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



All I really know or need to know is that the negative clamp goes to the vise & as Franz said, as soon as the bubbles appear above it, the correct polarity is confirmed.The old Wilton has been in the tub for 3 more days now with a steady light rain falling nearly all the time. The positively charged REBAR (screw this anode/cathode stuff) must be a real clumped-up mess by now. I noticed that the meter on the battery charger is hovering down around 1 1/2 to 2 volts but there is still visible movement in the water so there must be some action taking place. Later today I will haul it out again and see what we got. And take some pictures.

I think it is about time to saw a slot in that 3rd broken machine screw & see if I can back it out now, then take a few measurements & start making some semblance of a collar so I can start using the vise screw to apply reversing pressure to the jaw. It just might not require as much force to break it loose with a pulley-puller action. Hanging it by the neck & banging on it seems to accomplish about as much as banging on a stuck pulley.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Whoa Nellie, FOOD FIGHT Snipe boy!
"If you let the procedure run for years the vise would disolve
It's the same process as the Zinc sacrificial anode on a outboard motor." WRONG
You must have spent too much time watching that slide of the sacrificial Monica and swilling torpedo fuel.

The amazing thing about this process is that it won't continue once the rust is gone!!!
BTW, it also works on corroded brass, just won't shine it up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Dman033189

Can Someone tell me how to do electrolytic it looks handy to know how to do.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-13-2004


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dman033189
Can Someone tell me how to do electrolytic it looks handy to know how to do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Here are links to 3 websites that should give you more information than you can use:

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/ru..._derusting.htm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-14-2004

Show & Tell, day 6 still stuck

I hauled it out of the vat & spent half the afternoon trying to shake the slide out of the throat, all to no avail. First I tried hanging it by the front jaw again & banging on it with a 2lb hammer & a 2x4. Nothing. While it was in a more or less vertical position I kept the groove around the slide filled with penetrating oil just for the hell of it.

Then my son & I tied a comealong to a stump & chained the vise to a utility pole, trying to get as straight a pull as we could & used a 4 foot cheater on the lever. Not a hair of movement. So back in the tank it went.

There was some good news, though. I Dremeled a slot into the last of the broken collar screws and backed it out with no effort at all. Once I got a few turns on it, I finished it with my fingers. A combined shot of that is inserted below. I will paste together 2 or 3 shots of the present external appearance of the vise in a following post.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. First the damned software said to make it no larger than 800 x 600 so I resized it to 800 tall 356 wide. Still too tall. I guess that means the maximum dimension has to be the width? I'll have to redo the pasteup.
(3 minutes later) Okay, here's 3 postage stamps pasted together:



At this point the external surfaces appear just fine to me. There seems to be nothing left that wouldn't blow right off with a wire wheel. I guess I'll just leave it in the tub for another week & see what happens, after all it's not like I'm desperately needing it to use to keep the locomotive from running over the sexy girl tied to the tracks..... . .



Hmph!!!

I was sitting here, nodding at the keyboard & wondering how this thing could be so (John) Eff-ing stubborn when it occurred to me that every time I took a picture right up the gut, there still seemed to be a lot of rust. Then I realized that I had been laying it on the same side all week. So I began to wonder if the shape of the inside might be trapping air & preventing the water from reaching as much as 1/3 of the cavity? Sure seems likely to me.

So I took a little hand pump out there, purged the air of it and pumped water into the hole; bubbles rolled out of both ends. Now this might not constitute an acceptable test in your lab but it sure made me willing to roll that puppy over and do the pump thing again before going to bed. So I did just that.

Dang! Now I have to get all sleepy again - that water ain't just dirty - it's cold!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Since I been playin this little rust removal game a bit longer than you have, let me give you a little hint.
use one of those boltholes you just pulled the busted screws out of to make a second attachment to the vise.
When using this process on multiple part items that are stuck, you want a connection to each piece being derusted.
Rust sucks as a conductor of electricity.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-14-2004

Will do. Manana.

Thanks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: fla jim

Hey Franz;
What cause the action to stop when the rust is off of the object. Is it the electrolyte your using? I would thing that as long as you have current flowing, whatever was connected to the negative terminal would continue loosing molecules, although at a lesser rate?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Jim, damned if I know, but probably the electrolyte won't carry iron molecules, only iron oxide.
Try it with a piece of clean steel, NO Conductivity.
The guy who really understands the reaction is Stovepoker, and he can write pages on it, if he ever shows up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Here's a breif explanation of what is happening in the tank, complements of Stovepoker.

During the electrolysis, as a general rule ions are being replaced vs elements. So the Ferric Oxide is probably being converted to Ferric Carbonate.
Also any pollutants that are in the original water, and any contaminants on the part being derusted will lend their ions to the mix.
There may be Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride and who knows what else in there.
Basically there will be Hydroxyls, Carbonates, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Sodium, Iron, and maybe some Calcium or Chlorine in the soup. All that will be lost will probably be Hydrogen and Oxygen; anything else will remain in the soup as soluble salts (some Sodium Carbonate and maybe Ferric Carbonate) or as solids which will either precipitate and fall to the bottom, remain suspended in the soup, attach to the anode, or remain on the surface of the derusted part.

I'm just a dummy who knows the process works.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Cutter, you may want to install an anode inside the tube of that vise, making sure it can't short out, remember the process works best when there is a line of sight relationship between the anode and the rusty object.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:19 PM
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posted by: pjt

Wonder how it would work to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap on one end, drill a bunch of holes (or cut slotts), stick the anode inside the pipe, and shove the pipe inside the vice???


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: internal anode

posted by Cutter 03-14-2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by pjt
Wonder how it would work to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap on one end, drill a bunch of holes (or cut slotts), stick the anode inside the pipe, and shove the pipe inside the vice???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pjt,

I was thinking more like a short piece of rubber hose stuck in each end as insulators & the iron bar
slid through them. I had been entertaining that idea for several days. But I really do think I had been
trapping air inside all week.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Newb

This thread just keeps getting better every day.

Thanks for keeping us all posted on it. Gonna start mine on Tuesday if the rain stops.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Paychk

Another possibility is the hydrogen gas that is generated, is getting trapped in the cavity and pushing the solution out. Maybe a deeper bucket with the opening pointed up will solve everything.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-14-2004

!!! Hey now, that's a thought, too Paychk. Thanks.
I really don't have anything that might do except a 5 gallon pickle bucket (too shallow) or maybe a 30 gallon
garbage can. I am afraid the weight would over power either one. Have to give it some thought.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Well Cutter you could always fab up a nice frame to hang things in the garbage can.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: 7018

Well all this over a walton vice made me want one,I went looking!! found a Wilton 5" Combination Pipe & Bench Vise!! I ran a search on it and came up with this,
Wilton 5" Combination Pipe & Bench Vise
Item Number: WILC-2
Normally Sells For: $1097.95
Our Price: $783.61

Now this is a old one but in good shape,came from a junk store in Fla. I have 25.00 in it needs cleaning up alittle and some new paint. What you all think bout this one?




It would have been nice to find one the size of urs cutter But then u get what ya find!



Well guys this is the last one.Thanks for looking and i wish u luck hunting a good vice!!!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-15-2004

Very cool 7018!! Or as they say on the OWWM site "you Suck!".
That is their highest compliment on a great find.
How about giving us some dimensions? Looks like a 5" jaw width but was is your max opening, height,
weight & so forth. I wish there was some way of dating these things but I don't see anything to go on.

I left mine out of the goop today - got a supposed emergency plumbing call while I was fiddling with it & had to take off. Thought I'd have time to stop back by but got home at 7 pm. I did have time to drop by one of my favorite scrap yards to pick a piece of 5/8ths rebar to suspend though the center and a couple of mower blades to try as "electrodes" to collect the rust. (I am not using the controversial anode/cathode words any more.) I couldn't find any other scrap lying around here that I was willing to sacrifice whan a couple of bucks for junk would take care of it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: 7018

Well cutter they said 7 inch open but i opened it to 8 1/2 inches and it will hold 4 inch pipe they said however i havent tryed it as yet. got it out of the truck and took the pic.s so thats all i know so far. And i was hoping to find out how old this thing was! it has some weld splater on it but not much, all the jaw's look good not to much wear. But like i said wish it had been bigger,i'll stell be looking for a bigger one. And thanks for the reply


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posted by: Jim314

Newb is right. This is a great thread. Kinda like a soap opera, you have to tune in everyday to see if anything new has happened to the vise.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-17-2004

Oh WOW! A sopa opera! Maybe I can get my own TV show - "Monster Vice". Move along Jesse, you had your run. And I do have a small development to report this morning. I mentioned a few posts ago that I finally found a bar to insert into the cavity as an electrode to try & get the rust out of the inside where the worst crud appears to be holding it stuck together. I had to have some way to fasten a wire to it, so I ground the plating off a 1/4" bolt, ground a flat on the end of the rebar and tacked it together to make a binding post. Then I slipped a couple of pieces of heater hose onto it to insulate the bar from the vise. After I slid the rebar into the hole, I used an ohmmeter to be sure the bar wasn't touching the vise body & found that I needed
extra rubber at the front end to assure that the bar didn't contact the vise.

Finally I hoisted it back into the tub, hooked it up and the bubbles started appearing in less than a minute but the current drain dropped from 7 amps to about 1 1/2 in just a few hours. I checked on it at about 4:30 am & turned the charger off because this drop in current usually means the electrode is loaded with rust & I don't especially want it "growing" into the long nut & shorting to it; I just don't know what the effect of that might be. I also didn't particularly want to dive into that slimy mess this time of the morning to find out. By the way, if you're the impatient "type-A" sort of personality, this process may not be for you.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: atucker

Cutter,

If you're going to do a soap opera, do the soap opera and to heck with the regular job. We need action, not excuses.

IMPATIENT - NEVER

Not sure if you had the other "electrode" hooked up or not, but when I was playing around with this before, the current seems to be proportional to the electrode "area". Of course, the smaller the electrode, the faster they slime up and the current drops. This is process can definitely test ones patience. But it works!
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:24 PM
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posted by: Franz

Damn Cutter, that subliminal thought transferr process I did on you worked. I'm gettin better at it.

For you speed freaks, don't even think of hooking up the DC welder to get faster results. It is possible to boil the solution, and that really sucks in a plastic tank. NO, I didn't do it, and had I been the speed freak who did, I certainly wouldn't have posted that brilliant move.

I thought Soap Operas were supposed to drag along and keep you watching more commercials.
You too can have a supply of Uncle Franz's new and improved Secret Electrolyte concentrate shipped direct to your door, for only $99.95, plus shipping, handling and anything else we can think of. If you order within the next 15 minutes we'll include instructions for cooking hotdogs with an electric cord and 2 nails.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: fla jim

Just don't cook your hot dogs on a "steel Bench"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Given where YOU work Jim, I wouldn't cook anything on your bench.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Newb

Cutter, just make sure if this continues to soap opera that you don't start doing this topless. Or at least if you do, please don't post the pics.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-18-2004

What you better hope is that I don't do it in shorts.


I decided it was time to hang this old sucker up to get rid of all the air & hydrogen gas pockets on the inside, assuming that is the problem as Paychk suggested about 4 days ago. So I grunted it out of the tub one more time and dollied it over to the log splitting area where I have an old canopy frame set up that I can hang the war-stretcher from. I rinsed out a garbage can and lowered the vise down so that it is just touching the bottom & started a fresh batch of soda water. I brought another charger home so I can start the smaller parts in the other tub. They should clean up fairly quickly.



Five minutes later all that nice clean water had turned milky with lots of green scum floating around (11am Wednesday). I wonder if that might be grease from the threads? And just for grins I grabbed my camera & took a 5am (Thursday) nite-vision shot. Look at all that fresh brown slime! Surely it's coming from the cavity because there just wasn't that much left on the outside. Of course, I switched to a rusty chain & a foot or two of it is immersed now but still, there is a lot of rust in that water.



Question about the long nut???

So now I have a question for the other members of the Monster Vise build team: Can anyone tell me how to remove the long nut? It will wiggle up & down or side to side but it will not turn right or left. I don't know if it is pinned or screwed in place?

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Old 08-07-2005, 02:29 PM
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posted by: OlPilot

Cutter my boss has an identical vise and he says it's pinned. He rebuilt his also. It may be difficult to find the pin.

Cutter, well, here's what I found out. There is a pin on each side approximately in the area shown, symmetrically located. They may be hard to find, so Bruce suggests polishing the area to shiney metal and using a cotton swab with nitric acid. The pin should show up. The nut is shaped as shown, but the nut is cast and can be broken with excessive force. (Bruce told me not to ask how he knew!)
The nut, at last count, costs $85!



P.S. forgot to mention - Bruce says the two pins are only nut retention devices. They don't take any rotational loads as the vise is tightened. The back flange of the nut is machined to engage the bore to provide anti-rotation.

Art


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posted by: 7018

On my search for a bigger vice than the 5 inch i found, I did find a 4 inch combo but the man wouldnt sell it!! he said it was his Dads and he's 55 so its old i guess!!!!!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-19-2004

Thanks so much OP. You are indeed a princely fellow.

I had found an exploded view of a similar model on the Grainger site but as you can see, it leaves a little to the imagination. Last time I had the vise on the ground & let it dry off well, I saw a little dimple that made me wonder if there might be pins involved. This drawing confirmed that (assuming the design holds true for older models) but I was still not sure how far back on the cone to expect to find them. I got a little daylight left today so I think I'll go hoist it up and take a look.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 7018
On my search for a bigger vice than the 5 inch i found, I did find a 4 inch combo but the man wouldnt sell it!! he said it was his Dads and he's 55 so its old i guess!!!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Did you think to ask him if he would put you in his will?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: 7018

Nope didnt do that but i mite !!! Good thinking cutter.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-19-2004

Bingo!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by OlPilot
Cutter, well, here's what I found out. There is a pin on each side approximately in the area shown, symmetrically located. They may be hard to find, so Bruce suggests polishing the area to shiney metal and using a cotton swab with nitric acid. The pin should show up. The nut is shaped as shown, but the nut is cast and can be broken with excessive force. (Bruce told me not to ask how he knew!)
The nut, at last count, costs $85!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hee hee hee! Got it out, OP. No problemma.
Pictures & details tomorrow, I have other things to do this evening.
Stay tuned, folks. As Franz says, this gives us a chance to do more commercials.

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Old 08-07-2005, 02:37 PM
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posted by: 7018

This seems to be a never ending story!!!!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

And if you order in the next 15 minutes, along with your supply of Uncle Franz's secret rust removal concentrate, for only $99.95 plus all the shipping and handling we choose to gouge you for, we'll include the special Uncle Franz measuring spoon at no charge.
Just to make our customer service better, we now take PayPal.
Let Uncle Franz service you tonight. (Bolt, don't you dare tell em)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: 7018

No thanks Franz's most of us good old boys from the South arn't that

Dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Well, could ya tell me just how dumb yall are so I could adjust my marketing plan?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Newb

Hey Franz. I'm ticked. I guess I waited too long to get in on the special because I tried to send you the $99.95, but it kept getting rejected. Oh well. I guess I'll have to catch it next time.

C'mon now cutter. Don't keep us in suspense too long


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-21-2004

Don't despair Newb,

I have several small parts of it underway at the same time but nothing finished yet. And the damned thing is still stuck together. However, I will report back pretty soon. Need to sell some more ads, though.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Newb

I think you need to hook up a live shop cam


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-22-2004

LOL, then I could run around nekkid and talk real ugly like it was the Ozzie show?

Ummm, I don't think so. None of us are that bored yet.

Here is a problem I haven't ask you guys about yet because there is still so much remaining to accomplish with this attempted salvage operation. When I first notice the broken casting on the swivel base I really supposed it to be just a missing part of the rim on a 3-legged base because I see so many of them as opposed to 4-footed bases. Also because the location seemed at first glance to be out of position for a 4th foot. After a little study I have decided that was wrong; the 4th foot has been broken off & lost.

Anybody got any suggestions for patching this? Or do you think three mounting ears might hold up anyway?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by rusted

Mount the base with the broken ear facing front. You may rarely pry UP from the front, but I generally pry DOWN on the vise from the front. Therefore, the broken ear is a non-issue. Also, you get closer to the table edge that way.

I have no idea about actually repairing it though.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

After personally intervuing a Wilton this afternoon, up close & personal, I'd cut a new ear from flat stock, and everdure it on with the base assembled to the vise, and sitting on the bench. If you don't have TIG available, it can be done DC carbon arc, reverse polarity I think.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Questions

posted by Cutter 03-23-2004

Although the missing mounting lobe is somewhat a moot point until the stuck moving parts give up and start moving, I have questions about this proposed repair:

What is everdure?
I do not personally know any local weldors who do TIG, nor do I have a carbon arc.
Do you think I could braze the strap to the base?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: Franz

Everdure = phosphor bronz and you can run it with carbon arc on a DC machine, or even O/A. That casting is definitely a miserable SOB in terms of what it will probably do if it is heated, at least in my opinion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: OlPilot

Maybe not as bad as you think, Franz. Those old Wiltons were 60 KSI cast steel, not the 30 KSI cast iron used today. As a result, with much finer grain and less carbide precipitates, they weld much better. I don't think Cutter will have any problem. But a little preheat and postheat couldn't hurt.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by: 7018

Cutter i would preheat in the oven to about 280 or 300 then braze it. Cover in in dry warm sand and let it cool!! I've done a lot of cast that way it works really good!!! By the way do u know what the color of these vices were new?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Cutter 03-23-2004

Thanks for the advise Rusted, Franz, OlPilot & 7018. My concern about using the base with the gap in it is more about downward stress on the unsupported casting than it is about upward stress.

The biggest problem is my O/A rig is over at my shop, no oven isavailable there but I guess I could rig one up; there are a couple of old electric cookstoves somewhere back in the dust & shadows that I could dig out. I got a couple of collector-type gas ranges in there that are more accessible but no gas service to the building for 20 or 30 years, I'd guess. Come to think of it, I know where an old GE 27" drop-in is sitting that I should gather up for parts but I have passed over it up 'til now because you can barely walk through my building as it is. I dislike dragging the O/A rig home because I'd have to trailer it & then let the bottles stand overnight before I could use them. On the other hand, I guess I should be keeping that stuff here at the house anyway.

Paul, I uncovered remnants of a coat of paint a few days ago; it looked like plain old machinery gray to me but here is a picture so you can sort of guess for yourself.

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Old 08-07-2005, 02:43 PM
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posted by: Franz

Wiltons were a bluish gray, almost Square D gray.
I think their secondary line, Columbia came from the factory red.


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posted by: OlPilot

Cutter, just a thought on separating that monster. If you get your O/A going, you might be able to heat the outer portion so as to cause it to expand slightly. Be quick and use a big tip. Before the heat conducts through, and the inner gizmo expands, you might be able to knock it loose. I've done similar things, fact is, I use my O/A more for stuff like that than welding. Rust expands in volume about 10 times the volume of metal removed, so that's what's locking things up.


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posted by: Jim314

This ain't no soap opera, it's Survivor. Man vs. Machine. Whose gonna last the longest, the frozen vise or the man trying to unfreeze it. Cutter wins and he gets a VERY nice vise. If the vise wins it stays locked up for ever and Cutter retains a year's supply of Arm and Hammer laundry detergent as a consolation prize.


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posted by: Newb

OlPilot, if he heats the outside housing, what about hitting the inside with a blast of CO2 or dry ice? Maybe the heat on the outside and cold on the inside would be enough movement? Dunno, but it's my feable attempt to help.


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posted by: Franz

Patience is the name of the game here, ok, maybe patience plus a Porta Power and an air hammer.
Now, if cutter can just get OP to ship him some of the dry ice foodpacks, he can cut em on his bandsaw to fit inside the vise tube, and shrink that while he puts the rosebud on the outer tube and jacks on the porta power, she just might brake loose.
Or, he could just cook it a few more days and knock it apart.
The longer it takes, the more commercials for Uncle Franz's secret derusting potion I can run.


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backing up a few days

posted by Cutter 03-25-2004

I got off my feed for a few days & neglected to finish posting the details of the nut removal procedure. Ol Pilot had posted a photo showing the approximate location of the 1/4 inch steel dowels that secure the nut inside the body. Turns out they were located a little bit forward of where he was led to believe and once I really looked for them, they were pretty visible and turned out to be easy to remove. You have to use a long punch to drive one all the way through, forcing the other pin out then reverse directions and back the first one out the side it was in. The image on the left shows the dowel or pin after a couple of light taps with a 1/4 inch punch. I wound up having to use a transfer punch to reach all the way through but they really came out surprisingly easily.



Flash forward a few days to last weekend.

I hauled the vise out of the vat 3 or 4 days ago & let it dry off so I could make a cardboard template to use in
marking out a steel collar for the screw. I first peened out the rough shape of the milled surface of the vise jaw then went by my shop/barn & used a couple of holesaws to cut out a big washer from 1/4 inch steel plate. It is not perfect as my nearest sized holesaw was maybe a quarter inch smaller than might have been optimum but it will do.
While I was there I scrounged up a few 3/16ths x 32 screws to replace the broken ones.



Being scattered as I am, I brought the washer back home & cut out the opening of a c-shape on my old Delta
bandsaw so the collar would slip into the slot on the head of the big screw and tried in for a fit up in the jaw. I decided it would be better if I removed about 1/16 " from the thickness so I started grinding it down with a 5 inch grinder and polishing it out on a belt sander. Uncharacteristically , I had (and could find) both tools here . This process took a couple of hours but I wound up with a bright, shiny piece. The image on the right shows the difference in thickness and finish.



I cut a thin cardboard template & sprayed a coat of adhesive on it, laid it over the the milled surface on the front of the jaw and peened in the screwhole locations and the inner margin of the milled surface & began the agonizing task of locating & punching the screwholes, trying to keep them as close as possible to center and trying to allow just enough space to allow the big screw to turn without binding. This went on for a couple of hours before I decided to trust in "gumption flow" (see Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance). I have a little Harbor freight-type of 50 dollar drill press piece-of-junk in my garage so instead of trekking back over to the shop again, I used it. First I "carefully" selected a pair of drill bits off the top of my clothes dryer, squatted down in the floor & drilled 1/16th pilot holes, then the 3/16th screw holes. I got an amazingly close fit but fully expected to have to waller the holes out to get the screws to fit the screwholes in the jaw.

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If Øbama had a son he'd look like Mohammod Abdulazeez.

Let them eat hope.

"Dr. Chandran, will I dream?"

Janet Reno killed more children at Waco with Bill Clinton's permission than Adam Lanza killed at Sandy Hook.
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