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  #21  
Old 10-02-2016, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by allessence View Post
... As you can see the stuff I made is gray in color.. it is a dark green when in lump form...
No doubt picking up stuff from the pan.

I see some old welding flux recipes call for a portion of clean iron filings.

A bit about Borates: http://www.americanborate.com/all-ab...in-metallurgy/

There are a number of flux types that could include acidic, basic, neutral, and fluoride-based compounds.

A mixture of borax and ammonium chloride is used as a flux when welding iron and steel. It lowers the melting point of the unwanted iron oxide (scale), allowing it to run off. Borax is also mixed with water as a flux when soldering jewelry metals such as gold or silver. It allows the molten solder to flow evenly over the joint in question. Borax is also a good flux for 'pre-tinning' tungsten with zinc, which makes the tungsten soft-solderable.

Sometimes a simple combination of borate compounds provides an effective flux formulation. In this case a high temperature brazing powder flux is required and the only two additives are Boric acid (70 – 90%) and Borax 10 Mol (10 – 30%).

Still other flux formulations can contain Borax 10 Mol (10%); Boric acid (45%); Potassium fluoride (35%); and water (10%) to form a paste flux.

Yet another flux formulation for cast iron applications includes Boric Acid (10-30%) Slag (45-55%) and Silica (8 – 12%).
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:29 AM
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My comments in Red.
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Originally Posted by allessence View Post
HUM.. I have seen that different types melt at different temps.. Spent some time online going over the different varieties from chem houses..


Borax is going to melt at the same temperature every time. You may not
have pure Borax. Sodium Tetraborate (proper chemical name) for Borax has
3 known stable hydrates. The 10 mole hydrate being the most common
form. Anhydrous borax, is hygroscopic and will absorb moisture from the air
so if you ever purchase or make anhydrous borax keep it in sealed air tight
containers. Mason jars are good for this and relatively inexpensive.


i'll have to pick up a temp gun that goes that high and since I'm not good with C to F conversions I;ll have to see at what temperature this actually melts at..


Umm.... Don't melt it, you don't need to and are just creating more work for
yourself, water of hydration is not hard to remove. It is the same process for
drying 'wet' welding rod. You just need some moderate heat.

In the chemist lab, it is referred to as 'drying to a constant weight'.

https://www.google.com/#q=drying+to+a+constant+weight

743°C = 1369.4°F

http://www.onlineconversion.com/


Does the white powder stay white when you drive off the moisture????????? I would assume yes, as it never melts..


If you keep your heat moderate 300-350°F, the white power should stay white,
as I type this you should use glass (pyrex) dishes to dry your Borax not metal.
But metal (stainless) preferred would be fine keeping the temperature low,
300-350°F.

Generally white powders (inorganic) are clear when liquid. By heating it to
melting you are ruining it, by contamination. Borax reacts with the metal pan,
it is a flux right? Fluxes clean metal. You are cleaning your pan, guess where
the 'dirt' goes. Again don't melt the borax, you should just shit can the borax
you have already 'processed' as it is no good any more.


As you can see the stuff I made is gray in color.. it is a dark green when in lump form..

The metal under the melted borax getting really clean as the stuff is boiling in the pan..


You don't have clean usable Borax anymore, don't do that. Just toss it in the
garbage bin.


I have found that even after years of being in a bread pan at the side of the forge it still doesn't bubble up.. I've even had the pan get filled with water and I just dump the water out and put the pan next to the edge of the forge to dry the mix and it works just like it's supposed to with no puffing up or acting any different.. ??????????????????????????????????????????


The water of hydration is long gone by the time you melt the Borax so the
bubbling is some other reaction, most likely with something in the pan. The
bubbling is not water boiling off.

When looking up Borax hydrate physical properties the hydrate forms don't
have melting points. This is because on heating you drive off the water long
before the material melts, this is true of all hydrates. Water of hydration is
loosely bonded to the parent crystal.


Shade I have a package for you also.. Just need to send it..
I was going to ask you about that. I am working toward getting started on that little project. Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCPOP View Post
No doubt picking up stuff from the pan.

I see some old welding flux recipes call for a portion of clean iron filings.

A bit about Borates: http://www.americanborate.com/all-ab...in-metallurgy/

There are a number of flux types that could include acidic, basic, neutral, and fluoride-based compounds.

A mixture of borax and ammonium chloride is used as a flux when welding iron and steel. It lowers the melting point of the unwanted iron oxide (scale), allowing it to run off. Borax is also mixed with water as a flux when soldering jewelry metals such as gold or silver. It allows the molten solder to flow evenly over the joint in question. Borax is also a good flux for 'pre-tinning' tungsten with zinc, which makes the tungsten soft-solderable.

Sometimes a simple combination of borate compounds provides an effective flux formulation. In this case a high temperature brazing powder flux is required and the only two additives are Boric acid (70 – 90%) and Borax 10 Mol (10 – 30%).

Still other flux formulations can contain Borax 10 Mol (10%); Boric acid (45%); Potassium fluoride (35%); and water (10%) to form a paste flux.

Yet another flux formulation for cast iron applications includes Boric Acid (10-30%) Slag (45-55%) and Silica (8 – 12%).
Nice link.

I have always cracked up on the words mole or molar being abbreviated mol.
Really you are saving that much?

By the way a mole is 6.023 x 10^23. Why is that important. The molecular
weight of water is ~18. So 18 grams (0.0396 lbs.) contains 6.023 x 10^23
molecules of water. A concept I use regularly as a chemist.

So Borax 10 mol, is the old term for sodium tetraborate decahydrate, every
one mole of borax has 10 moles of water absorbed in to the crystal structure.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:31 AM
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Chem 101 is now over for today.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:52 AM
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
My comments in Red.

I was going to ask you about that. I am working toward getting started on that little project. Thanks.


Nice link.

I have always cracked up on the words mole or molar being abbreviated mol.
Really you are saving that much?

By the way a mole is 6.023 x 10^23. Why is that important. The molecular
weight of water is ~18. So 18 grams (0.0396 lbs.) contains 6.023 x 10^23
molecules of water. A concept I use regularly as a chemist.

So Borax 10 mol, is the old term for sodium tetraborate decahydrate, every
one mole of borax has 10 moles of water absorbed in to the crystal structure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
Chem 101 is now over for today.
Toss it.. It works better than the hydrous borax.. I know borax picks up water. But even though as described with the water and being flooded I figured it would foam again as it released the water but it hasn't. The last batch I made was maybe 15 years old and even after being in water, humidity and so and so it always performed the same.. Maybe it's because I don't crush it up as fine.. It stays more so in crystal shape..

Maybe I could send you a sample and get it tested?

I new it picked up iron from the pans.. It hasn't been much of a concern since lots of the commercial products have iron filings added..

I still will have to experiment because it does melt at a lower temp than even the anhydrous borax I have used that is white in color..

For me it's not so much the science vs it just working. But I do groove on the science side of it.. and was neat seeing all the chemical models laid out..

I do appreciate all the info though and this thread has turned into exactly what I was hoping for.. " A discussion both indepth and perfect for the lay person.."


Yes, I did not forget about you.. Just with finishing up the trailer and then demo's and then decompressing from all of it. Needed time to recharge the batteries.. So anyhow, The package will go out this week towards the end of the week..
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Last edited by allessence; 10-02-2016 at 11:36 AM.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
Maybe I could send you a sample and get it tested?
Tested for what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
I still will have to experiment because it does melt at a lower temp than even the anhydrous borax I have used that is white in color..
If it melts below 743°C then it is not borax.
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2016, 01:56 PM
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Boric acid melts at 170.9 °C.

Boric Oxide melts at 450 °C
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
Tested for what?



If it melts below 743°C then it is not borax.
Test to see just how special it is..


I tested it and it was sticking at a dark red heat..Not fully melted but you could see where it started to form glassiness.

But it sticks and melts at a lower temperature than the hydrous borax so maybe it's all and illusion..

Anyhow, Science and chemistry is just that.. Right.. I mean undeniable..

Thanks..
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If I defend myself I am attacked.

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My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

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Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2016, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
Chem 101 is now over for today.
to me it sounds more like Chem 1001. Way over my head anyways. Lol

Brian
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
Test to see just how special it is.. I tested it and it was sticking at a dark red heat..Not fully melted but you could see where it started to form glassiness. But it sticks and melts at a lower temperature than the hydrous borax so maybe it's all and illusion.. Anyhow, Science and chemistry is just that.. Right.. I mean undeniable.. Thanks..
Hydrated (not hydrous) borax does not melt.
You drive off the water long before it is near its
Melting point.

Sent from the great beyond...
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