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  #31  
Old 10-03-2016, 02:02 AM
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GWIZ GWIZ is offline
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Does this link apply ?


Dehydration Behaviour of Borax Pentahydrate to Anhyrous Borax by Multi-Stage Heating in a Fluidized.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/chem/...-10-0001-2.pdf


Anhyrous Borax (BA) Na2B4O7
Borax decahydrate (BDH) Na2B4O7 .10 H2O
Borax pentahydrate (BPH) Na2B4O7 .5 H2O

BDH can be transformed to BPH at Temperatures around 333K (140 F)
Then to Borax dihydrate (Na2B4O7 .2 H2O) around 393K ( 248 F)
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWIZ View Post
Does this link apply ?

Dehydration Behaviour of Borax Pentahydrate to Anhyrous Borax by Multi-Stage Heating in a Fluidized Bed.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/chem/...-10-0001-2.pdf

Anhyrous Borax (BA) Na2B4O7
Borax decahydrate (BDH) Na2B4O7 .10 H2O
Borax pentahydrate (BPH) Na2B4O7 .5 H2O

BDH can be transformed to BPH at Temperatures around 333K (140 F)
Then to Borax dihydrate (Na2B4O7 .2 H2O) around 393K ( 248 F)
The study was for industrial applications and the conversion was based
on both time and temperature not just temperature. In industrial settings
process time is critical, whereas in a laboratory setting we are more
concerned with quality than throughput.

Interesting read. Seem to lack a systematic approach. I bet is was funded
by a company with equipment limitations, or looking at purchasing particular
equipment.
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  #33  
Old 10-04-2016, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
Hydrated (not hydrous) borax does not melt.
You drive off the water long before it is near its
Melting point.

Sent from the great beyond...
Ah, yah.. 212f... Hello water boils at 212F and 100C.. .

Ok, since you opened the door.. Whats the difference between hydrous borax and anhydrous borax?

I thought it was just the water content was changed?

The PDF file or link added some information I had long forgotten.. It is Pentahydrate borax that I have..
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2016, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWIZ View Post
Does this link apply ?


Dehydration Behaviour of Borax Pentahydrate to Anhyrous Borax by Multi-Stage Heating in a Fluidized.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/chem/...-10-0001-2.pdf


Anhyrous Borax (BA) Na2B4O7
Borax decahydrate (BDH) Na2B4O7 .10 H2O
Borax pentahydrate (BPH) Na2B4O7 .5 H2O

BDH can be transformed to BPH at Temperatures around 333K (140 F)
Then to Borax dihydrate (Na2B4O7 .2 H2O) around 393K ( 248 F)
Excellent information.. Kind of what I have been saying the whole time..

It took just over 2 full tins to get the amount i have in the tin now. So while there was a small amount of waste and the anhydrous borax did pick up some iron from the pan it's all good with me..

Thanks Gwiz for finding it..
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If I defend myself I am attacked.

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My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

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  #35  
Old 10-04-2016, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
The study was for industrial applications and the conversion was based
on both time and temperature not just temperature. In industrial settings
process time is critical, whereas in a laboratory setting we are more
concerned with quality than throughput.

Interesting read. Seem to lack a systematic approach. I bet is was funded
by a company with equipment limitations, or looking at purchasing particular
equipment.
Or was vintage.. Just like me.. Things work because they work.. Today even though than can pull a sample of a particular metal doesn't mean they can still make the product they pulled the sample from.. At least at a reasonable cost..
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.

Last edited by allessence; 10-04-2016 at 07:23 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2016, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
Whats the difference between hydrous borax and anhydrous borax?
You made up the term "hydrous borax", but you mean hydrated borax.
So you should stop using hydrous borax, as it is not used in chemistry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
I thought it was just the water content was changed?
Some salts (Borax is a salt) will absorb water and bond weakly with the crystal
lattice of the salt. This is called water of hydration or a hydrate. Concrete is a
hydrate, albeit a complicated system with multiple anions and cations,
Portland Cement is a complex mixture of salts. Whereas, Borax is a single
component.

Yes, the difference is water content, Borax that is mined from the earth is the
decahydrate form. Or 10 molecules of water for each unit (or molecule) of the
crystal. The Pentahydrate has 5 water and the anhydrous for has none.

Also you Borax pentahydrate is most likely the decahydrate by now as from
early comment you have had it for years and I doubt you kept it in an airtight
container all this time. Crystals that form hydrates are almost always
hygroscopic, meaning they we absorb water from the atmosphere. So the
Pentahydrate you purchased is now decahydrate from improper storage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
It is Pentahydrate borax that I have..
As state above, not likely.

But besides all the discussion above. Save yourself a lot of work and time and
just heat whatever hydrated borax in your oven on glass or stainless steel 350F
should be plenty hot for several hours and then store you anhydrous borax in
an air tight container. There is no reason to heat until it melts, you drove the
water off long before the borax melted, the bubble you see after it is melt is it
reacting with your steel and is not water boiling off.
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  #37  
Old 10-05-2016, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder View Post
You made up the term "hydrous borax", but you mean hydrated borax.
So you should stop using hydrous borax, as it is not used in chemistry.


Some salts (Borax is a salt) will absorb water and bond weakly with the crystal
lattice of the salt. This is called water of hydration or a hydrate. Concrete is a
hydrate, albeit a complicated system with multiple anions and cations,
Portland Cement is a complex mixture of salts. Whereas, Borax is a single
component.

Yes, the difference is water content, Borax that is mined from the earth is the
decahydrate form. Or 10 molecules of water for each unit (or molecule) of the
crystal. The Pentahydrate has 5 water and the anhydrous for has none.

Also you Borax pentahydrate is most likely the decahydrate by now as from
early comment you have had it for years and I doubt you kept it in an airtight
container all this time. Crystals that form hydrates are almost always
hygroscopic, meaning they we absorb water from the atmosphere. So the
Pentahydrate you purchased is now decahydrate from improper storage.


As state above, not likely.

But besides all the discussion above. Save yourself a lot of work and time and
just heat whatever hydrated borax in your oven on glass or stainless steel 350F
should be plenty hot for several hours and then store you anhydrous borax in
an air tight container. There is no reason to heat until it melts, you drove the
water off long before the borax melted, the bubble you see after it is melt is it
reacting with your steel and is not water boiling off.
The hydrous moniker started maybe 20+ years ago with an article I had read.. Thanks for clearing it up..

As for the bubbling there is a miss understanding.
once melted on the hot steel there is no bubbling of any of the borax types.. except past a certain temperature and then you can see the flux bubbling on the surface of the hot steel.. usually around an orange heat..


All of the white borax (pentahydrate or decahydrate ) or even 20mule team expands as the water is driven off on the hot red steel... and bubbles..

The batch I made even 20 years ago didn't/doesn't expand/ bubble on the hot steel and the new batch clings tenaciously even at a dark red heat vs any of the white borax's. Deca or penta or 20 mule..

The reason I'm even mentioning it is the white stuff has to be put on at a higher temperature to ensure adequate coverage.

If you put it into the fire while it's all puffed up it just gets knocked off..

Today when I finish you goodies I'll have to make a video to show the differences..

From what I can tell with just the eyes the expansion of either of the 2 (( penta or Deca( 5 vs 10 molecules)) is irrelevant as is the length of time the product has been exposed to the air/moisture in the context of general use.. Since the moisture gets driven off once applied to the red steel..

It still expands about the same and defeats the reason I did it originally..

Like I stated earlier even the stuff I made 20 years ago that had been flooded and dried on the side of the fire over a period of days never expanded or puffed up in use.. so I can only come up with the crystal size must have been larger in size and since it was fully melted maybe it somehow limits water uptake.. This happened more than once..

From what I read in that article even with a long term heat up to a certain temperature you are only going to achieve a certain amount of water removal though the borax is at a higher temperature than the water boils at???? (question)

It then stated to get to the least water content one needs to actually melt the borax in a refractory oven which fully melts the product but creates of problem on the other side with processing.. ??? (Question) would this be what I had actually done?



Not a chemist and the last chemistry class I had was 36 years ago.. only looking for answers.. Yup, I'm slow..
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.

Last edited by allessence; 10-05-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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  #38  
Old 02-19-2017, 08:34 PM
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I built a brass tumbler outta a large 8" plastic union it worked great. If you added ball bearings it should do what you need.
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