Shop Floor Talk  

Go Back   Shop Floor Talk > Welding and Metalworking Forums > Welding

SFT Search:   
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:23 PM
mccutter's Avatar
mccutter mccutter is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 7,173
Question Victor O/A 250 Gauge and 100 Torch Questions

I have an older Victor CSR 250C oxygen regulator and 100FC torch I have questions about.

I might use this medium-duty torch set maybe 2-3 times per year. Last time I went to use it, the O2 had leaked out so I upgraded at my LWS and got the next size up cylinder for the cost of the gas. I think I went from an 80 to a 125. They are good like that! Anyhow, I went to use it last night and the oxygen gauge started popping off so I immediately turned it off. By popping off I mean the overpressure valve started releasing gas (at 100psi) and the low gauge started pegging. Murphy's Law in action...

Curious why the gauge was broken I took it apart. The diaphragm is near perfect and pliant. I store my gauges with the adjustment t-knob out so I doubt spring fatigue was the issue. I didn't see any dirt or anything inside--this torch set is in very good condition!

Went to the LWS to see if they could help me and although nice guys, they didn't have a clue what was wrong. I also needed a smaller welding tip for some delicate turbo manifold stud heating I need to do now and picked up a genuine Victor #1 tip which he gave me a "deal" on for $40 from the list price of $63 or so... He didn't have a #0 or #00 so I told him I would probably be returning it unused.

First question is: Which tip would you use? #0 or #00? Or the #1? (I have a #2) I want as small a pinpoint flame as possible to heat an exhaust manifold (turbo) flange just enough to be able to back the stud out without snapping it off so it can be replaced. I also don't want to set the car on fire because the area is very confined so an excessively long flame is not desired.

Welding City has this tip pictured for $8 with free shipping. I am probably going to pull the trigger on it soon so I can get it by mid-week when I will need it.

(con't)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gauge1.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	100.4 KB
ID:	139228   Click image for larger version

Name:	gauge2.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	116.1 KB
ID:	139229   Click image for larger version

Name:	gauge5.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	92.7 KB
ID:	139230   Click image for larger version

Name:	number0.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	25.0 KB
ID:	139231  
__________________

TA Arcmaster 185 w/tig/stick kit
MillerMatic 252 w/3rd gen 30A
MM140 w/o AS, w/CO2
Hobart (Miller) 625 plasma
Hobart 250ci plasma
Victor O/A (always ready, but bored)
Lincoln Patriot autodark (freebie)
45ACP Black Talons for those stubborn jobs...

Last edited by mccutter; 05-05-2017 at 06:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:33 PM
mccutter's Avatar
mccutter mccutter is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 7,173
Default Victor O/A 250 Gauge and 100 Torch Questions Pt2

Getting back to the gauge, the LWS was happy to have it repaired for me in 2 weeks for around $70! I passed on that service... They also had a pair of new gauges for around $160. I chose to pass on that, as well. I can borrow a set of gauges if really needed but I hate borrowing tools that I might end up on the hook for repairing them...

I took a better look at it back at the shop and one thing I noticed was the the little plunger thingy seal was deteriorated. It is metric, BTW... THIS was the only thing I could see that would allow high pressure to leak into the low side. The arrows point to where the seal was and the mating surface of the retaining cap that holds it in the gauge body. The seal is not available separately and the plunger thingy is included in a kit for about $20.

Question 2: What do you think that gasket/o-ring? is made of? Has anyone ever repaired the plunger that way? I have gasket punches and o-ring assortments--any suggestions? I have already removed most of what remained--it was a black, crumbly, gooey material that might have been the remnants of an O-ring but if you look at a parts kit, the sealing surface is flush across the opening where the little pin is.

Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gauge3.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	123.5 KB
ID:	139232   Click image for larger version

Name:	gauge4.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	119.5 KB
ID:	139233   Click image for larger version

Name:	torch6.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	100.3 KB
ID:	139234   Click image for larger version

Name:	partskit.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	38.1 KB
ID:	139235  
__________________

TA Arcmaster 185 w/tig/stick kit
MillerMatic 252 w/3rd gen 30A
MM140 w/o AS, w/CO2
Hobart (Miller) 625 plasma
Hobart 250ci plasma
Victor O/A (always ready, but bored)
Lincoln Patriot autodark (freebie)
45ACP Black Talons for those stubborn jobs...

Last edited by mccutter; 05-05-2017 at 05:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:35 PM
mccutter's Avatar
mccutter mccutter is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 7,173
Default Update...

I guess I ended up answering my own questions, sort of... I just wanted to get 'er done! Non-functional torches do me no good. I DID get spare tip o-rings while I was at the LWS... 2 pair were $4.

Rather than dicking around making a seal for the plunger and hoping it works, I ordered parts from "torchandweldingsupply" on Debay. Genuine (I'm assuming) Victor parts were $13.50 for the oxygen gauge rebuild kit, $16.00 for the acetylene gauge rebuild kit with bonus lenses (I figured "why not" rebuild that gauge while I'm at it) and $7.99 for a #0 tip which was all they had. Free shipping but I opted for Priority for $9 more.

I would be interested to know what the plunger sealing material was made of and why they don't sell that gasket/o-ring separate...
__________________

TA Arcmaster 185 w/tig/stick kit
MillerMatic 252 w/3rd gen 30A
MM140 w/o AS, w/CO2
Hobart (Miller) 625 plasma
Hobart 250ci plasma
Victor O/A (always ready, but bored)
Lincoln Patriot autodark (freebie)
45ACP Black Talons for those stubborn jobs...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:53 PM
arizonian's Avatar
arizonian arizonian is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 1,030
Default

I've always wanted to take a regulator apart and see how they work, but what scares me is contaminating the inside with any kind of oil, including what's on your hands. Would cotton gloves be safe?
__________________
Bill in sunny Tucson

I believe in gun control.

Gun Control: The ability to consistently hit what you are aiming at.

Weldor by choice, engineer by necessity.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-05-2017, 11:30 PM
mccutter's Avatar
mccutter mccutter is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 7,173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arizonian View Post
I've always wanted to take a regulator apart and see how they work, but what scares me is contaminating the inside with any kind of oil, including what's on your hands. Would cotton gloves be safe?
I wouldn't worry about it. The tolerances don't appear super tight. There are probably more contaminants from the gas than would be on your skin. The gauge IS dry inside--the only lube is a dab of grease between the T-knob and a titty disk that pushes against the diaphragm spring.

That said, I took the acetylene regulator apart and it is nearly identical to the oxygen. I did note a good amount of "staining" from the fuel that I'll probably clean with a Q-tip and some denatured alcohol.

There is really not that much to them... Clamp the housing in a vise--these has a hex nub on the back for this purpose, take a large adjustable and loosen the diaphragm cover. This exposes the diaphragm. There is a nylon ring that allows the cover to spin over the diaphragm when tightened. The diaphragm needed to be separated from the housing and I used a utility knife blade sharp side up to do this. Once the diaphragm is off, it exposes the low side chamber. The high side is under the plunger cap (or whatever it is called) which is removed with a 5/8" socket (I think). Reassembly is reverse but I found it easier to flip the gauge over when screwing the diaphragm cover onto the housing.

I have a couple older Victor units I may rebuild just to have on hand. Replacement gauge dial assemblies (not the whole regulator which is what I should be calling these) were around $15.
__________________

TA Arcmaster 185 w/tig/stick kit
MillerMatic 252 w/3rd gen 30A
MM140 w/o AS, w/CO2
Hobart (Miller) 625 plasma
Hobart 250ci plasma
Victor O/A (always ready, but bored)
Lincoln Patriot autodark (freebie)
45ACP Black Talons for those stubborn jobs...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:10 AM
GWIZ's Avatar
GWIZ GWIZ is offline
SFT Historian
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,336
Default

I assume the issue can be acetone in/from the Acetylene bottle eating rubber....
__________________
*
*
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. ~Warren G. Bennis
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-06-2017, 09:35 AM
monckywrench's Avatar
monckywrench monckywrench is offline
trust but verify
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 4,172
Default

I rebuild my own regulators and flowmeters (after buying a pile of them at auction) per the Victor service manuals and there's not much to it. I've even converted acetylene regulators to LP by swapping in an oxygen regulator spring and installing the appropriate output side pressure gauge whose face I mark with "LPG" using a Sharpie. The soft parts are acetylene and LP compatible throughout fuel regulators. I checked with Victor tech some years ago and even their smallest regs are dual fuel. Victor manuals break down regulator internal part numbers for each making it easy to see what's common and what's not. (There are even some Victor regulator domes without marking for specific gases. I assume they are replacement parts.)

Acetone is good for cleaning metal parts to "oxygen safe" condition after normal corrosion and crud removal by mechanical means.
Of course the parts must be completely dry of all acetone before assembly.

I wash my hands before reassembly and clean my tools (don't forget the INSIDE of sockets!) with acetone and a bore brush.

Victor seat retaining nuts are shallow so I grind off the entrance chamfer from my socket to grip more of the nut flats. That chamfer is a manufacturing convenience to center the broach and isn't an advantage in use.

I don't use other than rebuild kit seals since I don't know the history of random "supposedly Viton" rings from elsewhere. The kit price is chump change.

If your oxygen regulator is nasty it may be more convenient to have it rebuilt so someone else gets to clean it.

They probably don't sell the separate parts because someone will be tempted to reuse other soft parts then sue when they miss a defect.

I use a piece of pipe notched to clear the inlet and outlet fittings on the regulator body to hold it when removing and installing the dome. My regulators are mostly 450 series with no back nut.

Inlet and outlet fittings are normally replaced at no extra charge by the rebuilder who serves my LWS so if I need those, a seal kit and gauges I let them handle it.

Last edited by monckywrench; 05-06-2017 at 09:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-06-2017, 10:17 PM
arizonian's Avatar
arizonian arizonian is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 1,030
Default

Quote:
Acetone is good for cleaning metal parts to "oxygen safe" condition after normal corrosion and crud removal by mechanical means.
Of course the parts must be completely dry of all acetone before assembly.

I wash my hands before reassembly and clean my tools (don't forget the INSIDE of sockets!) with acetone and a bore brush.
Thanks. That's the part that scared me. Next time my oxy reg needs rebuilding, I'll give it a try.

Several years ago I was semi-involved in a pipe project that had to be "oxygen safe." I remember using a black light to check for traces of oil after pressure washing and cleaning with Simple Green. Would a small black light such as used in auto AC leak checks be enough?
__________________
Bill in sunny Tucson

I believe in gun control.

Gun Control: The ability to consistently hit what you are aiming at.

Weldor by choice, engineer by necessity.

Last edited by arizonian; 05-06-2017 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-08-2017, 09:45 AM
monckywrench's Avatar
monckywrench monckywrench is offline
trust but verify
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 4,172
Default

I do AC checks too and if you use it in a dark room (I do my AC dye checks at night) it should work fine. I've never used black light to look for oil and wonder at that since normally one adds dye to their oil if checking a lubrication system.

There should be no oil in the first place after an acetone bath.

Off Topic but useful info:

If you get a nitrogen regulator to do AC pressure checks before charging the system which is a wonderful way to find leaks, you can use any dry welding gas like argon or MIG mix if you lack a nitrogen cylinder or run out on a weekend. Same CGA cylinder fitting means no effort needed. I'd swapped an empty nitrogen cylinder I got off Craigslist for argon at my LWS, then of course ran out of nitrogen so I used argon. Worked fine as it logically should.

The last mechanic who troubleshot my AC used vacuum which isn't nearly as reliable because of the low pressure differential compared to pressure testing. I used 200 psi (with UV dye which is also wonderful for finding tiny coolant leaks) on my F150, Silverado and three of my buds cars. He did the same after assembling his AC system mounted in his shipping container shop.

http://www.redpowermagazine.com/foru...heck-ac-leaks/

BTW your 100FC torch is very easy to reseal/revalve if you wish to revive it. You can pressure test torches with inert gas too. I made a Y-hose with a brass air nipple to use (clean, dry) compressed air to test and have also used inert gas. Torches operate at low pressure so using clean air is no big deal. General procedures are in torch service manuals. I pressurize my torches in a clean bucket of water then observe valve nuts, tip and cutting oxy lever seal area for leaks. It's a good way to check used torches before putting them to use.

Last edited by monckywrench; 05-08-2017 at 09:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:23 AM
mccutter's Avatar
mccutter mccutter is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 7,173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monckywrench View Post
If you get a nitrogen regulator to do AC pressure checks before charging the system...

...BTW your 100FC torch is very easy to reseal/revalve if you wish to revive it..
You reminded me I need to rebuild my nitrogen regulator... Forgot to order parts for that one... I use it for A/C flush but the pressure test is a good idea.

Once everybody is back together and tested for function, I'll go over with a soapy spray. Hopefully won't have any issues with the torch but I did buy O-rings for the tips. I have gotten into the habit of checking cylinder valves for leaks once back from the LWS. I don't like to go to a tank that went empty on its own...

Still waiting for the parts to arrive... I might have to borrow a torch to expedite the repair (parts for the car will be here today) but I think he had a #3 tip on it...

PS: flame size chart for reference... The #0 will be better than the #2 but I'll probably order a #00 and a #1 for future use and to round out the collection. You can see why I'm not eager to use a #3.

Even though the area to be heated is where the light-off cat goes, and the cat gets up to 1500^F, the area still wasn't designed to contain an open flame...

PPS: View is looking up from below. L. O. cat is on the left, turbo on the right. The cat is off now and one stud came out on its own but another is seriously lacking threads from heat and corrosion. May as well replace all of them while I'm in there. A little heat and I suspect they will back right out. At least that is what they told me...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	flamesize.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	72.4 KB
ID:	139280   Click image for larger version

Name:	catview.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	85.9 KB
ID:	139281  
__________________

TA Arcmaster 185 w/tig/stick kit
MillerMatic 252 w/3rd gen 30A
MM140 w/o AS, w/CO2
Hobart (Miller) 625 plasma
Hobart 250ci plasma
Victor O/A (always ready, but bored)
Lincoln Patriot autodark (freebie)
45ACP Black Talons for those stubborn jobs...

Last edited by mccutter; 05-09-2017 at 12:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Web Search:

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.